DivingTalk

Go Back   DivingTalk > Scuba Diving Forums > Technical Diving Discussion > Wreck Diving


View Poll Results: What are your thoughts on retrieval of artifacts from lost ships?
I don't have a problem with it 1 20.00%
I would avoid taking anything from a known war or serious accident wreck 0 0%
I am not sure what I would do 0 0%
I don't wreck dive 0 0%
I always leave the wreck as I find it so others can see it in its entirety 4 80.00%
Voters: 5. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-22-2007, 08:50 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: York, UK
Posts: 1,227
Send a message via AIM to Ally
Question What are your thoughts about wreck diving and removing artifacts?

When you dive on a wreck, especially a wartime wreck or a wreck from a major accident/incident, what are your feelings about removing artifacts?

Do you retrieve things without a thought, or are you someone who would leave things as they are out of respect for those who were lost aboard the wreck?

This is from BBC News....

Quote:
A man who survived the sinking of a ship during World War II in which 4,000 troops died is urging the government to declare the site a war grave.

The troop ship Lancastria was bombed in St Lazaire off the coast of France on 17 June 1940.

Reg Brown, 87, of Bedworth, Warwickshire, said he was "disheartened" after hearing divers are looking for souvenirs on the wreck.

He is to hand a 3,000-name petition to Downing Street next week.

Thousands of troops and refugees were on the ship as part of the evacuation of France.

Mr Brown, who boarded it an hour before the attack, was one of 2,000 men rescued.

He said: "As the boat sank and turned over upside down, there were hundreds singing 'roll out the barrel'. They knew they were going to die."
Ally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 09:46 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
MgicTwnger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 1,569
Default

I wish you had included the choice of not removing anything from any wreck. The souvenir you take is one less thing for the next guy to see.
__________________
I am not the one who needs mental help. I just need to vent.
MgicTwnger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 09:52 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: York, UK
Posts: 1,227
Send a message via AIM to Ally
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MgicTwnger
I wish you had included the choice of not removing anything from any wreck. The souvenir you take is one less thing for the next guy to see.

Consider it done
Ally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 11:39 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: York, UK
Posts: 1,227
Send a message via AIM to Ally
Default Full info on RMS Lancastria...

Next week the Lancastria Association of Scotland will hand in a petition to Downing Street in an effort to have the victims of the UK's worst maritime tragedy properly remembered and their final resting place protected.

The petition reads as follows:

"We, the undersigned, call on the British Government through the offices of the Prime Minister to designate the wreck of the troopship Lancastria an official maritime site/war grave by means of the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 or by the introduction of a Statutory Instrument which would allow the site to be formally designated by the British Government in recognition of the sacrifice of an estimated 4000 lives, mostly troops of the British Expeditionary Force, who were lost on 17th June 1940. This petition, which has attracted signatures from across the world, calls on the Government to finally and formally acknowledge the loss made and to bring about official designation for the wreck of Lancastria."

Incredible as it may seem, the wreck of the LANCASTRIA is not protected as, or formally recognised as, a war grave by the UK. For years the Association has tried to bring to the forefront the need to have the vessel declared an official war grave. They also wish to have a memorial erected to mark what was the single biggest loss of life at sea in the Second World War.

Why has the loss of the LANCASTRIA and her thousands of victims never been properly recognised by the British Government? To answer that we need to go back to the era in which they perished.

Losses on this scale were very often, if not nearly always, hushed up. At the least, the scale of loss was held back. Morale was everything to the UK, fighting what at times must have seemed a never ending war to defeat the forces of Nazism. In the case of the LANCASTRIA a total ban was imposed by Britain's wartime leader.

The Association says in its website:

* On learning of the disaster late on the 17th of June Winston Churchill banned all news coverage of it for fear it would damage public morale further, following the capitulation of France which also occurred that day. Churchill later claimed he simply forgot to lift the ban. An American newspaper was the first to publish details of the loss of Lancastria late in July 1940.

To this day it would appear, the British government does not whole-heartedly accept the loss nor the need for formal recognition through war grave designation. The French government threw a 200 metre exclusion zone around the vessel in 2006 to protect it from divers and looting. The Association says that the UK government claimed credit for this development despite papers obtained under Freedom of Information revealing "their growing annoyance with the issue".

The Association hopes that as a result of their petition and efforts, the UK government will at last afford the dignity and respect that LANCASTRIA and her thousands of victims deserve. So far they have made great progress with the Scottish government, and in 2005 MSPs from Scotland’s 6 political parties signed a specially made book of condolence in memory of the victims. Two parliamentary motions in the name of Christine Grahame MSP aimed at highlighting the sacrifice also received cross party support.

The Association also wants a memorial to be erected in the grounds of the Golden Jubilee Hospital at Dalmuir, Clydebank. On this site once stood the mighty shipyard of Wm Beardmore, the shipbuilders who built the liner back in 1919 for the Anchor Line of Glasgow.

A brief history of the LANCASTRIA
She was built, as stated above, in Dalmuir, near Clydebank in the then modern shipyard of Wm Beardmore, part of a huge empire of industries that included shipbuilding, armaments, vehicles and aircraft manufacture. Her original name was TYRRHENIA, and was laid down for the Anchor Line, a respected and venerable Glasgow shipping company. By this time time Anchor was owned by Cunard and many of the vessels built for each company would work for either or both of them. TYRRHENIA began life as a Cunarder as her ownership was transferred to the Cunard books as she was building.

By all accounts her early years were not remarkable. It is said that her name was changed to LANCASTRIA two years after she went into service because American's had difficulty getting their tongues round her original name. That may be true, but another story is that she had earned the nickname 'Soup Tureen' - which was hardly flattering.

She did not last long as a liner, Cunard deciding after only two voyages that she would be better suited in the cruise market, and so after a refit in 1924 and gaining her new name she began the role that by and large she maintained up until the outbreak of war in 1939 and by 1940 she had yet another new role - troopship.

On the morning of 17th June 1940 she found herself off the coast of France, waiting at anchor to board troops, the remnants of the British Expeditionary force. Dunkirk had happened two weeks prior to this. You can read a full account of the boarding at the Association's website, but to cut the story short, she had to load as many men as could struggle aboard her. How many is unclear, some estimates say as high as 9000, and it may have been, but whatever the number, it was well in excess of her accepted maximum of 3000. By the afternoon the ship was swarming with men packed on her decks, holds and cabins, and then the German aircraft came in.

The attack was swift, the effects devastating. Within minutes LANCASTRIA was ablaze in parts and sinking. Men scrambled for boats, for the water, or clung to her hull as she slowly turned, dying in the waters. Harrowing pictures of the foundering vessel show men spiked over the great undersides like starlings. Knowing their time was up, the men began to sing defiantly as they clung to the ship, its propellers now exposed.

And as the ship rolled, the song they sang was 'Roll Out The Barrel'...

http://www.lancastria.org.uk/
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lancastria_011.jpg (16.3 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg bond-book-cover-Lancastria-sinking.jpg (27.5 KB, 1 views)
Ally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 02:04 PM   #5
Community Advisor

 
glynneco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Near Washington DC
Posts: 454
Default

I have taken a pledge not to disturb wrecks PERIOD. The archeaological damage to a site by removing artifacts is actually criminal. Many navies including the US still regard wrecks as their property and are not abandoned. Underwater wrecks properly excavated can provide an incredibly intimate snapshot of a period in time. A second point is in many instances people died there in terrible circumstances and that should be respected. Thirdly leaving a wreck in the condition you found it ensures that divers who come after you can have the same experience. Much like our rapidly disappearing forests I believe the only things we should take from a site are memories and pictures.
__________________
Is that the bottom of the quarry or is the vis just really bad today?
glynneco is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On